self-criticism. You haven't done enough, you're not enough, keep pushing in the long run ends up leading to emotional burnout, dissatisfaction, unhappiness. You may achieve objective success, but you're still never happy. So, I'm going to share something with you and anyone who struggles with acceptance that might completely change the way you view positive affirmation. Positive affirmation backfires and makes you feel

worse. That is a huge shift. >> She's a former lawyer turned behavioral researcher who's helped Fortune 500 companies build stronger leaders. Dr. Shade Zarai is reshaping how we understand confidence and the quiet beliefs that drive performance. >> Psychologically healthy people do experience doubt. It is a necessary part of the human experience. We think we're the only one who experiences this. We're

the only one with doubts. We're the only one who becomes critical after a failure. No, that's ignorant to think that. How do we begin to build that muscle? >> I love that you're asking this question. This is where we get to the really meaty piece. >> I was telling you earlier um how much I love the topic of the new book and

really the thrust of your work. The new book is called Big Trust: Rewire Self-doubt, Find Your Confidence, and Fuel Success. Really fun. Um, and I was telling you earlier that in all the years, and now it's 10,000 plus calls of coaching people live on the air, so you got about 8 minutes max. So,

you got to dig quickly. One of the things I found all that time is that we're all just looking for that magical feeling of confidence. And this is just so vital to winning in life. Obviously, winning in work. And so, I'm so excited to dive in on this. And I want to get to some data right away. National Library

of Medicine uh study said that up to 82% of professionals report experiencing imposttor syndrome at some point in their careers, including high performers. So I bring that data up to just for people that are feeling like they have no confidence. I want to level the playing field to go, you're not alone. Would you agree with that? >> 100%.

>> What is it about the human condition that we all struggle with this? >> It's because of our brain. when we really strip it down, it's because of our brain and how we're wired. So, our brain is designed, I mean, a lot of people say it's designed to protect you, >> and that's part of it, but actually, if we strip it back even further, the function of the brain is to make sure that we operate as we need to using the

least amount of metabolic energy. So, what does that mean in people speak? The brain is fundamentally lazy and it wants to do as little as possible to keep you alive. And part of that involves protecting you from things that it thinks are a threat. >> Now, when we then look at the evolution of our brain and our evolution, one of those threats is the risk that other

people will judge you, >> the risk of rejection, the risk of criticism from others, but also the risk of criticism from ourselves. And so what our brain does is magnify everything that could go wrong. And then we catastrophize. And then what so many of us do is we convince ourselves that we are not ready, that the timing is not right, that it will never work, that

we're not enough. Why? So that we stay safe by not taking action. But then we end up completely stuck >> and stagnant and in careers that are miserable and relationships that are unfulfilling because we don't trust ourselves enough to actually do anything about it. >> Now, what's so interesting about this idea of confidence, >> I've been passionate and fascinated by

confidence for so long. And when I was doing a lot of research in this over the last five years, we identified when we were interviewing people and running data and running analyses, we found that this idea of confidence that people have, it's associated with a feeling of certainty. >> It's this certainty that I know how things will go. And that feeling of certainty we found actually doesn't come

before you take action. So people are waiting to feel confident before they apply for the job, ask for the raise, apply for their promotion, take on the opportunity. >> But that feeling of certainty doesn't come before it actually comes after. And it's because of what's going on from a psychological neurobiological level. When you do something, when you take

that step, you speak in that meeting, whatever it is, you see yourself. It's a proof point. Hey, I did this thing. which increases what's called self-efficacy which is the belief that hey I can do this >> which then increases a degree of skill and competence and then you feel that sense of confidence that you were seeking so if all these people are

waiting to feel confident that's why they're holding themselves back >> that's right >> so if that feeling comes after we take action what actually comes first >> okay we have to we have to dive right >> we have to there's so much in that >> there is and so I love what you just said can we say that Low certainty usually leads to low confidence. Can we say that? Okay. So to your point, we

have to actually win the battle with this uncertainty business. >> Yes. So the brain loves predictability. Why? Because it uses less energy if it can just predict what's coming so that you then don't take action. Again, going back to that idea of least amount of energy, the brain is lazy. So if we're looking at it from the perspective of you want to create predictability so

badly so your brain will look at all the things again that could go wrong or all the ways that you may fall short picks one because then hey it's predictable I've anticipated this so that you don't take the action and that's a lot of what drives our worries and our insecurities when there's no certainty. If you knew for a fact that if you applied for this thing you would fail. It's a little bit

less scary because you already know what's coming. >> That's right. if you had the certainty, but it's the not knowing, that discomfort of the uncertainty that leads us to feel the anxiety and the rumination and the overthinking. So, absolutely, the brain's desire for predictability, which is there to try and make life easier, ends up fueling

the way that we're feeling, which only makes things worse. >> Yeah. So what's the balance between doing the research, using discernment, getting wisdom from others, all things that you and I would both say yes, you should do it. But even then, after all of the gathering, let's call it that, at some point the big moves in life, the ones that really pay off, and dare I say

the ones we're supposed to take, they're going to have a large dose of uncertainty. Yes. >> Yes. >> So, so what you were saying is we have to act. So I'm coming back to the advice you gave there. So how do we begin to build that muscle? >> I love that you're asking this question. This is where we get to the really meaty piece. >> Okay, >> let's look at the word confidence for a

moment. >> If we look at the origins of the word confidence, it comes from the Latin con and fidere >> which translated means with trust. And so what that means is that the feeling that we've associated with confidence is actually certainty. But if we look at the origins of the word, it's saying no, you just have to take the step with trust. Isn't that wild?

>> It's rich. >> And you don't need to know how it's going to turn out. You don't need to know if you're going to succeed or not. You just trust that you are going to take the step. And you trust that no matter what happens, you will be okay. So when we then ask people, okay, what does it mean to trust yourself? This is where we get a thousand and one different responses because it looks

different for everybody. And this is where I became really fascinated and I wanted to understand what does it actually mean to trust yourself? Yes. >> And this is where I came across some fascinating research that helps us understand why our beliefs about ourselves impact whether we trust ourselves or not, which then influence whether we take the step, which then influences the lives that we lead. But

in fact, rather than going into a lot of the research, I'm going to share some stories cuz I think they're more memorable. Just know it's all backed by the research. It's all there. >> So, I'm going to take you to George. George is a doctoral student at Berkeley and he's running late to his graduate level statistics class. So, he's making his way to his class. He finally arrives. He sneaks in and he goes and sits down and he looks and notices that

behind the professor is a whiteboard. And on that whiteboard, the professor has written down two statistical frameworks or questions on the board. So, he writes them down. He believes they must be homework. >> Class ends. He goes home. He spends the evenings, the days, the weekends working on these problems. They are harder than anything he's done before. But finally,

he solves them. He goes and he hands them into his professor. And he apologizes. Hey, I'm sorry they're late. The professor is stunned because what the professor had written on the board was not homework. These were two examples of unsolvable statistical theorems. >> The professor was demonstrating sometimes there are things that are just impossible in statistics. And yet

George, blissfully unaware that they were meant to be unsolvable, >> he solved them. >> Now what I love about this example is this is a true story. This is about George Bernard Dansig. >> Wow. >> He went on to revolutionize the world of linear programming. He's now a Stanford professor. And he even said in an interview more recently, he said,

>> "If I had known that those were not homework, but were unsolvable problems, I probably would have been discouraged and I never would have tried." Yes. >> And they would have remained unsolvable statistical problems. Now, why I love this story is it reminds us that, you know, George wasn't superhuman. >> Yes, he may have had some degree of

talent beyond others, but >> it was a decision that he made that this can be solved. This is not impossible >> and I'm going to do it. >> Yeah. >> Yet so many people >> Yeah. >> decide that something is not for them. They can't do it. They're not worthy of it. >> And then they don't even try. >> No. And I hate I don't want to oversimplify that story, but it was all

context >> completely. >> He looks at the board and goes, "Oh, these are homeworks, so it must be solvable. >> They must be solvable." And as as a result, he goes and tries to figure it out. >> That is a huge shift >> completely and it's about expectation. So in the 1970s, a psychology professor by the name of Robert Click >> from Dartmouth, he was conducting this

experiment where he brought people together and then he split them into groups and with one of the groups, he drew a scar on their face from their ear to their mouth and then he let them see themselves in a hand mirror so they can confirm yes there is this big ugly noticeable scar on my face. He then sent everyone out into conversations with strangers and then they had to come back and report how they felt the

conversation went. Now, the participants that had the scar on their face that was painted on, they believed that their conversation partner was tense. It was uncomfortable. >> They felt like they were judged and treated differently because of this scar. >> The other group, it was a fine conversation. >> Sure. >> Now, that in itself would be an interesting study on discrimination and prejudice. But that was not the point.

There's a little extra piece of this study. If I take you back right before these participants were sent into conversations, they've got the scar. They've seen it in the mirror. They were then told, "Okay, we're going to apply some moisturizing cream, so the scar doesn't crack." But what actually happened was the scar was removed entirely. They believed they still had a scar.

They expected people to treat them badly because of the scar, but they didn't have a scar. >> And it influenced what they noticed, what they paid attention to, and how they interpreted the entire interaction. >> Wow. >> Wow. I get goosebumps when I tell that. >> That's amazing >> because how many of us have internal

scars that we are carrying with us into every interaction, every interview, every meeting, every workplace >> and we're seeing things that confirm that about us even if they're not really there. >> Wow. >> It is wild. I mean like mic drop moment. >> Yeah. >> And then what's even more interesting is

we've seen this play out in other spaces as well. So Aaliyah Crom has done research on expectation, the power of expectation from a neurobiological perspective. And so what she did, one of the studies that I love sharing is that they had people come in to do this experiment and they gave them milkshakes. And with half the group, they said, "This milkshake is really

calorie dense. It's going to fill you up for a long time. It's full of calories." The other group was told, "Okay, your milkshake. There's like nothing in it. It's super calorie light. Wow. >> You'll probably get hungry very quickly." >> Yeah. It was the same milkshake, but they primed them in a different way. The group that had the milkshake that was told it was calorie dense, they were fuller for much longer.

>> Of course, >> the other group that was told there's basically nothing in this, they were hungry very quickly after. >> Wow. >> Same milkshake, different expectation. The placebo effect is real. It's documented. There are scientific evidence to show this. And when we strip it back, it all comes down to the expectations that we have about something. Mhm. >> And that also applies to the expectations that we hold about

ourselves. >> Yes. >> And so when we look at then selfrust, we've gone, okay, so this is reflecting the scars that we carry, our self-image, how we see ourselves. So then how does that link to selfrust? And this is kind of the missing piece that a lot of our work fills the gap of what is self-image? How do we see ourselves? How do we determine what these scars are? When I looked at over

50 years worth of research, I found that in around the 80s, the '7s, '8s to the '90s, there were some organizational researchers who were looking specifically at people in workplaces. So, it's like the applied psychology in workplaces. >> And they were able to distill this idea of how we see ourselves, our self-image down to four personality traits.

>> Okay? >> Four personality traits. When they combine, it forms how we see ourselves. If you're serious about winning at work this year, let me ask you a question. Are your systems helping you grow or are they holding you back? That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Quo, the smarter way to run your business communications. Here's the

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quote. No missed calls, no missed customers. >> So the four personality traits, it forms what's called your core self-evaluation. Okay? >> Right? Cse. How you see yourself. >> And so the first one is self-esteem. So it's the esteem with which you hold yourself. Do you feel like you're of value? >> The second is self-efficacy.

>> Okay? >> Which is that belief that you can actually do the thing. You can set a goal and achieve it. The third is what's called locus of control which relates to where do you feel control comes from your life. Is it internal or do you feel like other people are calling the shots? Everything is out of your hands. So this is either an internal or an external

locus. And then the fourth relates to emotional stability. >> Can you actually manage and handle the emotions that you have? >> Now what's so fascinating about this is that none of these are objective. What I mean by that is it's entirely how you see >> right >> your ability in those spots. >> Correct. >> And so, okay, Ken, I want to ask you this.

>> We were coming a lot across a lot of resistance when we would share this with organizations, with leaders, with teams. Whenever we use the word personality, >> why do you think that is? Why do you think someone might be resistant when you start talking about a personality trait? Well, it's very intimate because it is like you're you're it's almost like you're saying this is who you are.

So, it feels like a very personal label is my guess. >> Absolutely. So, it's this idea that people so deeply identify with their personality and also we would hear one common resistance point which was >> well that's just who I am. >> Yes. Right. >> I guess that's just who I am. I'm not the person that does that or I'm not the person that does this or I am the person that does that. >> Which implies no change ability.

Exactly. Which is why I think it's such a resistance. >> You're going to give me this, then I don't think I can do anything with it. >> Completely. >> Okay. >> Especially when people have such deep scars, if we use that analogy. >> That's right. >> That they don't even believe they can change. They don't believe they deserve that they can be better. >> Yes. >> So, we would hear this, we'd be like, well, personality, that's just who I am.

And it's because for a very long time, for decades, in fact, researchers found that yes, your personality is largely stable. how you developed as a child both in terms of your nature and also nurture how you were raised it kind of persists throughout the rest of your life >> unless and this is where I got really excited >> okay >> there is more recent research in the last five or so years and part of my

study was looking at can we change someone's personality >> and the answer is yes >> but you have to choose to intervene >> we also know that you can experience a big life event that fundamentally changes your personality becoming a experiencing a severe trauma, whatever it might be, but you can actually choose to change your personality, which is so

exciting. >> So fun to know that. >> So fun to know. Very empowering. >> So is the intervention in those four areas. >> Yes. So the idea here is that we moved away from talking about personality because again we had this resistance and we started looking at what is the trainable attribute that helps you strengthen and improve each of those four personality traits. And that's

where we came up with our framework which we call the four A's. And so I'm going to take you through the four A's because this is how we see ourselves. >> I love this. I these I have these down. The first is acceptance. >> Okay, walk us through that. >> So with acceptance, what we see especially in the world of work, >> we see four really common patterns. The first one is the pressure to prove. So because you don't feel like you're

enough, you feel like you have to compensate and prove your worth through achieving, through getting the next promotion, through getting the next Yeah, I I resonate with that too. It's very common. >> And so our entire sense of value hinges on the achievement, the promotion, the job, the title. >> Intellectually, we may know better, but

still we have that deep scar that usually originated early in life. And so that's how we live. So it's the pressure to prove. We also say to ourselves, when I get there, when I achieve that goal, when I get that, I don't know, car or that um position, then I will feel like I've made it. And Ken, what happens when you finally get there?

>> You realize that's not what it was about in the first place. >> Exactly. And then you're like, "Okay, well, maybe that one then. Maybe I'll try that one." And you're perpetually seeking. It's called the arrival fallacy. >> Yes. >> Right. So, that's our first pattern, the pressure to prove. The second one is the likability trap. M >> if you don't accept yourself >> oh boy >> you outsource this and you need everyone around you to accept and validate you because if they accept you maybe you can

accept yourself >> but then it leads you to say yes when you really mean no to over apologize to shrink your opinions so you don't upset anybody >> and then you lose yourself in the process >> right well there's a leak in that bucket >> yes >> but I think this is where we see leadership failures whether they be moral or ethical or you know any of that like just across the board That's what

happens with high achievers, high leaders and they get tempted and that's where that all breaks down >> right there. >> So >> especially if they also have a pressure to prove. >> That's what I'm saying. It's that's where they start making that's a really great insight. >> So that's our second one which is liability trap. The third one is the shrinking syndrome. So we've worked with a number of leaders who are fully

capable of taking the next step. In fact, they want to and then the next step arrives >> and they come up with all these reasons and excuses as to why actually the timing is not right. No, no, I'm not going to do it. No, I'm actually really happy with where I am. It's called the shrinking syndrome. >> So, the opportunity arises, they're just on the brink of success. >> And what's in their mind is, oh no, if

something goes wrong, >> then my reputation will suffer. Then this will happen. And then they hold back because it's safer. >> But then it's all that unlived potential. So that's the shrinking syndrome, the third one. And then the fourth is a really interesting one. It's called the Shaen Floyd cycle. It's a German term. It's where people get a sense of pleasure from seeing other people's misfortunes or stumbles or

failures. >> And that is a sign that your acceptance is weak. And it's very ego-driven. >> So these are the four most common signals that someone struggles with acceptance. And it is extremely common in high performers. >> Now for some of them they say but this drives me. this pressure to prove drives me to keep performing. And that may be

the case, but we also know from research that that kind of self-criticism, you haven't done enough, you're not enough, keep pushing, in the long run ends up leading to emotional burnout, dissatisfaction, unhappiness, strained relationships cuz you end up sacrificing so much. >> That's right. >> And so you may achieve objective success, but you're still never happy because you never get there. and you

leave this history of damage that you've created behind you because you've been overlooking people >> that you care about or things that you need to do to stay healthy mentally and physically. So that's acceptance. The second one is agency which relates to the question of can I actually do this thing? >> Yes. >> Can I do it? >> Yes. >> Am I capable? Am I competent? Do I have the skills or can I learn what I need to

learn to do the thing? Yeah. >> And as you said, >> is there a touch of shame going on here? >> Yes. It's it's almost like a guilt. M >> it's we find shame is more associated with acceptance but the guilt is I don't deserve to be here there are other people who are better than me or more skilled or more competent >> and that also leads people to one of two behaviors which is overcompensate okay I

don't deserve this so I need to really prove that >> so I will take on everything and take on more and keep pushing >> or they start shrinking oh no I I don't deserve this visibility so I'm going to pull back from it so one thing I encourage everyone listening and watching to just pay attention to is if you feel like an imposter firstly know that you're in some really good company even felt like an imposter

>> and it's just a very common byproduct of firstly struggling with agency part of it could be intellectual humility >> Adam Grant talks about this a lot you're aware that there are some gaps that you have which is a great thing that's self-awareness but you're in the room you're in the role you're in that opportunity >> so make the most of it learn what you

need I like to say if you struggle with imposters or imposter thoughts instead of I don't deserve to be here, flip into, wow, what an amazing opportunity I have to learn and grow. >> Oh, that's huge. >> Completely shifts your orientation. Give yourself the grace. >> Uh then the third thing we see here is waiting. People will wait. They wait to

feel ready. They wait to take the step. They engage in the preparation and the practice and the planning. and they just don't want to start unless they're convinced that they know how it will turn out. Linking back into that certainty piece. >> But I always like to say anyone who has done anything new has been in a position where they didn't have all the answers. >> That's correct. >> And they could have easily thought, "Oh,

I'm an imposter here." >> No, you're just learning and growing. >> That's right. I used to tell callers, if you're feeling doubt, that is a great sign that you're attempting to do something or you're even just thinking about it. The people who sit on the bleachers of life have no doubt. They don't have any doubts. >> No. And they watch it all. >> They're so loud, obnoxious, because they have their skin in the game, right? They can be.

>> Yeah, that's a great point. >> It's almost like imposter that feeling of an imposttor is growth with integrity. >> Yes. >> Right. You're acknowledging you don't know everything and you're going to maybe fumble, but that is okay because you will learn what you need to learn and you'll be better because of it. So that is agency. The third one is really interesting and people don't even associate this with doubt, but it relates to a lack of selfrust.

>> That's right. >> Ken, have you ever come across someone who complains constantly? >> Oh, yeah. >> And they are resentful and frustrated at other people and they blame other people and they tend to keep reliving the same story about how everything is unfair. Yes. >> And all the hurts they've been through. >> Oh yes. >> We all kind of know people like this. Now, this reflects what's called an

external locus of control. Mhm. >> And we refer to it as a low level of autonomy. >> These people feel like they have no power in their lives. >> That's right. >> They feel like they have no control. >> And so what do you naturally do when you feel like you have no control? You fixate on everything you have no control over, which does what? It makes you feel even worse and makes you feel more powerless. Why? Because you actually

have no power over those things. >> You put yourself in a prison >> completely. >> And then they get stuck in why me? >> Why does this keep happening to me? They victimize themselves. The quickest thing you can do in that moment is to shift from why me to what next? >> Yes. >> What next? Simply by shifting your attention in that way, you're re-engaging the prefrontal regions in the brain, which puts you back in the

driver's seat. It also does two things. You're acknowledging, I can't change this situation. It is what it is, but what am I going to do next? What is my next step? >> Really simple. And then I will just share two more tips here because it's so valuable. When we're in this state, especially if you have a loud inner critic, >> you will often hear it as shoulds. You

should have done that. Oh yeah, >> you should do this. But you feel powerless, so you don't take action. >> And Ken, how do you feel if someone says to you, oh, you really should do that, you shouldn't do that. >> Oh well, you feel defensive immediately, right? >> Immediately. It's called reactance. That feeling that we get where it's almost like we want to rebel. >> That's called reactance because we fundamentally want to feel like we are

the agents in our lives. We want to feel like we have control. We don't want people telling us what to do. >> That's right. >> But we can feel that same thing when we use shoulds on ourselves. >> Oh yeah. >> I should be doing that. I should have done that. It doesn't feel great. >> Have you heard the phrase on that? It's really funny. You're all over yourself. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic, isn't it? Stop on yourself. >> Yeah. Stop all over you cuz it's getting on me.

>> Oh, I love it. >> And that's just a fun reminder that it that is a stinky, smelly, awful situation to be in. >> It is. What research says is that word should can cut off divergent thinking, reduce the ability to problem solve and cut off creativity. >> And there's one word reframe you can use. Instead of should, >> shift to could.

>> Could. Yeah. >> What could I do? >> Yeah. >> Well, I guess I could do that and I guess I could do that and I guess I could do that. And what you find is if you start going in the realm of shoulds, you realize there's actually a lot you could do. I encourage people to grab a piece of paper and split it into two columns. On the left, you write your I could list. Write down all the things you could do. The great thing about this is you're not committing to it.

>> So you don't need to worry about, oh, there's so much here. It's just all the little steps you could take. >> Yes. >> Then the next column is your I will list. >> What are one, two, or three things that you'll take from your I could list that you will actually take action on. >> And again, this instantly boosts your autonomy. You're shifting your locus inward. And then when you take action on those small things, you're getting proof

points. Hey, despite the fact that there's all of this that I can't control, I took that step. So that's our third one. >> And then the fourth pillar of how we see ourselves, it relates entirely to your ability to handle the emotions that come with life. >> And we refer to it as adaptability. >> So it's your ability to adapt to whatever's going on inside

>> because our emotions are entirely a world within us. >> Things happen outside of us. There may be a stimulus, something happens, someone says something, but your reaction is your reaction only. and you either allow it to happen or you adapt to it so you can channel that into something positive. Whether it's okay, I'm in a meeting and someone has just said something really condescending to

me. I can snap back if I react to that emotional wave within me or I can take a small breath. I can approach that person in the meeting or after and ask what they meant. So we have choice but we need to get better at actually managing that. >> You know something that blows my mind? There are companies out there gathering your personal information. They package

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row seat. LinkedIn, I believe every year they put out like kind of a survey and results on what are the most soughtafter skills. And I know two out of the last three years or two out of the last four, adaptability has been the number one skill that hiring managers are looking for. Brilliant. So, I just want to validate what you're saying here because

that's what they need >> and especially in today's economy. So, just a fun point on adaptability. Okay. So, we've got a great setup for this. >> We do. >> So, here's the envelope and again, you mentioned the quiz. This is connected to the book on the book website. >> So, you can go take it. I took it but on purpose >> did not dive in to my results. You're

going to break me down. >> We're going to break down Ken. Thank you for taking this firstly. >> Sure. >> All right. So we have his profile results here. So what we get from this, this is actually really interesting. So first it gives us your big trust index >> which means how much doubt do you experience on a daily basis? >> There's three levels. There's doubt heavy, there's situational doubt, and there's big trust. Now you are you're in

the big trust zone, but you're a little close to situational doubt. Now what is the difference between those two? Okay, >> situational doubt means that >> your doubt is influenced by your environment. It's contextual. So, it might be that you're around certain people that lead you to doubt yourself. It could be that when you're around people who are far more advanced than you, you start to doubt yourself or just in certain unfamiliar situations, maybe

you doubt yourself. You're in the big trust zone, though, which means that you have done the work to make sure that even if you're in those situations, you remain steady. >> You have tools you can come back to. >> That would be therapy. >> Fantastic. Brilliant. I'm such a proponent of therapy. So if we look at how Ken's doubt profile breaks down across these four attributes, your

agency, your autonomy, and your adaptability are in the hidden strength zone, which is almost at the highest it could possibly be. Why that is great. So sometimes people do these and they're at the the highest, which is the superpower zone for all of them. That's a red flag for me >> because what that tells me is that they

might have some of these attributes that are actually excessive and then they become liabilities. Okay, >> for example, >> what happens to someone if their acceptance is exceedingly high? They have extremely high self-esteem. What is the risk factor there? >> Um, >> it's probably some leaders that you know like this. >> Yes. I mean, they just can't take any

kind of feedback or any kind of push back or anything at all >> because they think that they're >> they're the only ones that are right. They're Yeah. >> Exactly. They're like, "No, I'm I'm better than everybody." >> And so, they struggle with learning and growth and feedback. >> There's a there's a trap for narcissism there. Yes. >> 100%. And it's usually linked to that. >> Yeah. And then you probably also I'm wondering organizationally if there's

also it's just a derivative or a temptation to surround yourself with Yes. people. >> Yes. As as I said, yes, exactly right. You surround yourself with people that are going to give you the information you need. Now, the other thing that's very interesting with this is often people who score at the very top for acceptance are actually hiding >> a real weakness with acceptance.

>> Oh, yeah. >> So, it's actually not that they're extremely high in acceptance, it's that it's extremely shaky >> and they're masking it with this grandiosity, which is often what we see in narcissism. Yes. Exactly. Same with agency. If someone's really high on agency, they might believe that they're genuinely better than everybody else. Or it could be a reflection that they feel so unstable in their skills that they

try and come across as if they're better than everybody else, but they're actually not. So the fact >> So what was I? So where? So I'm not in that zone. >> No, no, you're not in that zone. You're not in the the risk zone, which is also a superpower zone. >> So strength zone was which three? >> So you have three. So it's agency, autonomy, and adaptability. >> Now that means that Okay. So my acceptance was lower than that. >> Your acceptance is in so your acceptance

is conditional. >> Yeah. And that's a that's absolutely spot on. That's that's I haven't completely grown, but I've got some tools. >> You've got some tools. Fantastic. >> Yeah. But that's that's very real. >> Well, let me tell you what it looks like. >> But I'll tell you just a confession here. Keep rolling here. I think that's probably the nature of this environment here

where a lot of scorecards in this building, a lot of people weighing into what I do. >> Two, I'm also in a space where >> I'm public. >> You're being judged constantly. >> Constantly. And there are measurements like here's where your Instagram is, here's where your Tik Tok is, here's what your sales are. And you there's a natural comparison that just comes with the nature of the work. The way I like

to say it is I'm surrounded by scoreboards, but I signed up for it. I mean, it's not a gripe. That's my reality. But given my background in past, that's why I think that's there. >> And it can happen based on your environment, too. So, what we also know is that based on your workplace environment, you experienced something called career imprinting. So, Ken, let's say you were just starting out your

career. You were what 21 and you came into an environment that had a lot of scorecards and unlike this was not supportive and was toxic and you had a micromanaging leader and you started to fundamentally doubt that you were of any value and that you had any skills whatsoever >> and then you decide okay this is not for me I need to leave to another company

and then you do and you go into a supportive company but you still doubt yourself >> and this is because career imprinting can fundamentally change how you see yourself. >> That's right. And then even if you change your environment, you still carry some of that with you because you believe that it might play out again. And then unknowingly you might end up creating that environment because of how you're showing up. You're guarded. You're not fully open. So it's

interesting to think about the role that workplace culture plays in how we see ourselves. Now the fact that you have those strengths >> in the agency, the autonomy, the adaptability, you rely on those to help elevate the acceptance when you need to. Uh >> but it does mean that you are going to be hard on yourself and take it personally if things don't go well.

>> Uh if people don't like what you're doing because a lot of what you do is public. So if you get a lot of those negative comments on YouTube or someone doesn't like a podcast, >> I'm the product. >> Exactly. You feel like it's you. >> It's a reflection of you. And that's when you then lean on those other attributes to help get you out of that state. So you might lean on your autonomy to go, okay, I feel this way,

but what action am I going to take? If I stay there, I might start focusing on everything I can't control, like other people's opinions. I'm going to do something to change my state or shift into another gear. So that's how you'd be leaning on your autonomy. You might focus on your agency and say, "Well, no, I back my skills. I've been doing this a long time. I know objectively this was fine. I can learn from it next time."

And that's how you don't reinforce that lower acceptance. Sorry. >> So that's what your doubt profile shares or shows us. It's really the ability to recognize that okay, your acceptance is shaky. Could be a byproduct of where you are. I'd say more than that though, it's it's a result of how you are as an individual. No question.

>> How you've been, you know, raised, maybe environment. Exactly. >> But it's beautiful because it demonstrates as well to all of us. You can have self-doubt related to one of these four areas >> and win >> and win and still be winning. And in fact, in a way, it keeps you humble. >> It keeps you grounded. >> It keeps you focusing on, hey, I can still grow here. There are things I can

do. I can apply the the things that I'm learning from therapy or the tools that I've been sharing with my clients. I can apply them myself. >> So, that's the beauty of getting this kind of self-awareness. >> So, what do I do with this information? >> So, with this information, there's a few things. If we want to focus on your acceptance, which I think for most people is probably what they struggle with the most. >> I'm going to share with you just a few

simple tools that you can apply. There's 29 in the book, but let's just go with like top line. >> The first one is going to be to be extremely aware of >> thought versus internalization. What does that mean? >> You might find yourself if something doesn't go well, if someone gives you negative feedback, you might start thinking to yourself, "Oh, I messed up.

I failed. I'm not enough. And it may not be anything you would verbalize, but it would be things you would think to yourself. >> Yeah. >> That language of I am fill in the blank. This is called item identification. So, we're becoming that thing. I am a failure. We become that. I am not enough. We become that. One thing you

can do instantly, which is super simple. It's called cognitive diffusion. It's to become aware of your thoughts rather than being your thoughts. So instead of I am a failure, you would say to yourself, I'm noticing a thought that's telling me I'm a failure. And it sounds really weird and robotic. When we share this with people, they say, "Really? You want us to say that?" And the idea is

yes, you want to say that because you're hijacking that autopilot. >> Yes. Also, you're re-engaging when you're consciously aware of your thoughts and what you're saying, you are re-engaging those prefrontal regions in the brain, which means you get more blood flow there, which means naturally the blood that was all in those threat detection fear centers naturally >> reduces. So, we get less activation

there, more there. So, I'm noticing a thought that's telling me I'm a failure. Same thing applies with emotions. You might say to yourself, "Oh, I'm so stressed. I'm so anxious." You are becoming the emotion. It sounds very fixed. You are not the emotion. Just like how you're not the thought. >> So you'd say, "I'm noticing that I'm carrying a lot of anxiety. >> I'm noticing that I'm feeling sensations

that >> are related to frustration." >> Yeah. >> So you're just creating that pause. Again, that's called cognitive diffusion. It separates you from the experience. And that's going to be really valuable for anyone who struggles with acceptance. Recognizing you are not your thoughts. You can separate. The second tip here. Do you tend to You

don't strike me as someone who tends to over apologize. >> Oh, actually I do. >> Oh, okay. So, perfect. So, let's go into this. >> I think I'm getting better at it, but yeah, I used to say I would, you know, if I hurt somebody's feelings or be too intense at the office and I do this my I go on the apology tour. So, my Brley and I years ago was like, don't he would say to me, go, "Don't go on the apology tour. >> Don't go on the apology tour." So yeah,

there's no question I have that in me, but that's the uh negative side or the really weak side of people pleasing >> completely, which relates to low acceptance. >> And so something that is so simple to do is the next time you're about to apologize when you haven't actually done anything wrong, I mean, if you've done something wrong, go for it. Apologize to your heart's content. But if you haven't actually done anything that warrants an

apology, >> shift to appreciation or gratitude instead. So instead of sorry I'm talking too much which lowers your status and makes you feel worse, you would say thank you so much for listening. >> You're communicating essentially the same thing, but it just comes across so differently. You're moving from I'm not

enough to hey, I'm going to acknowledge you for being here with me. And then you lift yourself and the other person >> instead of, you know, let's say you're 30 seconds late to a meeting. A lot of people will rush in and say, "I'm so sorry I'm late." You put a spotlight on your deficiency. >> You could say, "Thank you so much for your patience." Yeah, you're famous for that. So, you can try the, "Thank you

for your patience. I really appreciate, >> you know, I really appreciate you waiting." >> Now, of course, if it's like more than 5 minutes, you may want to apologize if you're creating inconvenience. But if it's just these little things, shifting into gratitude for the other person and also paying attention to what is the quality in the other person I want to acknowledge right now. That's good. >> And you know, another really good one, especially for people who feel like they

can be quite emotional at work. >> So, I'm talking there are a lot of women who identify with feeling very emotional, some men, too. >> Research has found that when you use language of, "Oh, sorry, I'm just emotional." >> It undercuts your credibility >> and it lowers the perception other people have of you. It also makes it feel like a really bad thing. Sorry, I'm

so emotional. If you simply shift to, you can either say, "Thank you for bearing with me." Or if you want to actually increase your credibility, you would say, "I'm just really committed to this. I'm just so passionate about this." >> So instead of, "I'm just emotional right now." I'm really committed and passionate to this. >> And that instantly increases the perception of credibility in the minds

of other people. It makes you see it differently as if it's not something you need to apologize for. And suddenly that is a demonstration of greater self-acceptance. >> That's really good. >> Really simple. Have you ever used positive affirmation like I'm enough. I'm worthy >> in therapy. Yes. >> Okay. So, I'm going to share something with you and anyone who struggles with

acceptance that might completely change the way you view positive affirmation. And it's that if you struggle with self-acceptance, positive affirmation backfires and makes you feel worse. >> It backfires and makes you feel worse. And it's because it is fundamentally at odds with how you see yourself. And you cannot lie to your brain,

>> right? >> Because what happens is then you get those voices saying you're not worthy. Who do you think you are? And it becomes even worse for you. You get into this negative self-perpetuating cycle. >> So this is also why I think it's so important for us to be aware of what is driving our doubt because there are these big solutions that were offered like positive affirmation. Yeah. >> But it doesn't work the same way for

everybody, >> right? And that's why some people can become so disappointed with their growth journey because they get one tool and then they try it and then it doesn't work or they feel worse and then they throw the what is it? They throw the baby out with the bath water, right? >> Which is such a horrible analogy. >> I know. >> Let's not damage any babies. Uh so what do you do instead of a positive affirmation? >> It's to shift into something more growth

oriented. For example, not I am worthy. I'm enough. It would simply be I am capable of learning and growing every day. I don't have to be perfect to be on this journey of self-development. >> Right. >> So, it's very very pragmatic statements that meet you where you're at. >> That's right. >> And if you repeat these more because we know that words create worlds. So, the

words that we have up here create how we feel which influences how we show up and then how other people respond to us. When you can be more pragmatic and realistic. >> Yes. >> In your affirmation. So, we call it a self- validating statement. >> Yes. >> That's when things shift. >> Cuz think about I am enough. What does that even say? No, >> that's a very good point. >> How does that square with all of the

positive thinking? I'm thinking of Norman Vincent Peele wrote the classic the power of positive thinking. How does that square what you just said with with that whole genre? >> So it's complimentary what we know with research with insights that come from authors or um experts things evolve and change. So this insight that positive

affirmation backfires when you struggle with your self-esteem and self-acceptance was only discovered in the last 10 or so years. It hasn't been widely, you know, spread to mass uh understanding yet. But we need to be open to things evolving and changing. >> Yes. >> And I think we need to also find what works for us. >> Because even though I just said it backfires when we look at research, so

how research operates is that you're looking for statistical significance. you're looking for something to improve or decrease in a way that is measurable and it's in improving or decreasing to an extent that you can say yes this produced this result. That doesn't mean that 100% of the people in that study did experience that. It's just that enough people experienced enough of a

change for it to be significant. So you might struggle with self-esteem but actually positive affirmation works really well for you. And if that's the case do that. But if you find that it doesn't know that it's probably because this research suggests that it's confl or rather it's contradicting how we see ourselves and that's why it's not working. So find something else. And I

think positive thinking is powerful. Optimistic thinking is powerful. I think realistic pragmatic optimism is more powerful. Yes. >> So it's not things are always going to work out because then if something doesn't work out you then question well was I mistaken? What's going on? Maybe I should never think that way. It's things may work out and if they don't I'll be

okay. >> That's why your could list is important. >> Yes. >> I if I have a substantial could list I can revisit. >> Is that what I'm learning? I'm trying to learn real time here. >> You can absolutely. So you do your what's on your will list? >> Yeah. >> And then once that's done you then go okay great. What else was on my could list? What else can I do? >> And just by doing that that's how you create your own momentum. >> Yeah.

>> Because every action that you take I think James Clear writes about this. He says, "Every action that you take is a vote for the type of person you want to become." >> Yes. >> Because you're getting a proof point of who am I? >> Am I the kind of person that takes action when I feel like everything is out of my control? And if I'm that person, then how do I keep being that person? >> Yeah. >> And that's how we can also change our

histories and change fundamentally how we see ourselves and then change our personalities. And it starts with >> having enough of those proof points that hey, I am this kind of person. That's who I want to be. >> That's good. I love it. >> Yeah. >> Hey, here's a truth I've learned the hard way. Cheap stuff usually cost you more. You buy the bargain mattress and 3 years later you're replacing it. That's

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avocadogreenmattress.com/ken to find your next mattress today and get an extra $50 off adult mattresses with the code front row seat. That's avocadoomattress.com/ken and use the code front row seat. >> I want to talk about confidence and leadership. And we've had such a great

framework here to get into this, but I want to show you something first because >> I I I'm about to show you a a real press conference moment. some couple moments with the national championship football team college football Kurt Signetti largely unknown coach okay and he comes from a small school a division below

division one where he's been a prolific winner okay comes to Indiana which before he arrives two seasons ago okay it is the losing has the greatest losing record in the history of college football they are just awful okay he comes in. It's not a football school. And we're going to show you two moments

before he ever coached a game. All right? And then we'll come back on this. This is about confidence. Okay? >> Let's watch this.

>> Yeah, it's pretty simple. I win. Google me. >> Okay. So, at the time now that how does that come across to you just on the surface >> exceedingly high acceptance. >> Okay. Yes. All right. So, let me give you the so the rest of the story. >> Okay. >> So, this shocks the sports world. Okay. He goes on the first video was he's on

the Indiana basketball court and he's talking about their rival Purdue and he takes on two of the biggest most successful programs in history and says they suck. Crowd goes nuts. No big deal. at that press conference, they basically how why are you confident you can win here at a program that's never won? And that was his answer. >> Well, if you actually Googled him, you find that he's won multiple national

championships, has an unbelievable record on a smaller level. He comes in >> and he's lost one game in two years and he just went undefeated and won the national championship in two seasons. He's being considered as one of the greatest turnaround stories in the history of sport. >> Wow. Even it's but the confidence to say that it was so shocking

>> and a lot of people were like this guy >> and he's delivered. >> Wow. >> So I set that up to go okay we have a lot of leaders who struggle with confidence >> when you see that you said strong acceptance but he's delivered. >> Yeah he's delivered and he did it was he he had the track record of delivery and then he did again in the future >> and so he doesn't come across as

arrogant >> because he can back it up. >> Yeah. So how does he how does a Kurt signetti I know you don't know him and I know you're from afar here but how does he develop that kind of confidence where does that come from >> big trust so not really if we if we break it down so he has extremely high acceptance well actually >> we we can't categorically say that he

might take failure personally and that might be what has driven him >> but he has exceedingly high agency >> yes >> meaning he knows he can do it because he's done it before >> yes >> he obviously purely From the few seconds that we saw, he focuses on what he can control and he makes things happen and he seems like an extremely emotionally

stable person in terms of just focusing on what needs to happen and potentially bouncing back really quickly when things go off course. >> Yeah. >> So again, we don't know about his acceptance, but he's able to stand up there because he's got that track record. And he also probably knows that how he comes across and how much confidence he exudes is going to be how

much confidence the people around him will also exude. >> I'm so glad you said that because that was my question. That has to be if we just take the law of the mirroring. You know, you talk about the the study you show showed earlier when people thought they had a scar, they acted in such a way. This guy has figured it out and it infects the entire program. Correct.

>> Yes, it does. Emotions are contagious. Emotions are contagious. Your beliefs are contagious. And we don't realize we're on the receiving end of this constantly. But if you're in a leadership position, so this is interesting when we talk about leadership in organizations. If you're in a leadership position, you need to have full confidence in your ability, even if it's just confidence in your

ability to learn what you need to learn because other people will feed off that. Now, that doesn't mean that you need to come across as if you're invincible. >> That's right. because we do know that vulnerability is also very important in building strong connection. But this is the mistake I see, see if you recognize this or if you've seen it. Some leaders, especially if they're new to leadership, >> they have that idea of, oh, I must be

vulnerable. And so they get in there and they try to get on everyone's level and they share all the times they've messed up and how they're not perfect, which is a really good start, but then they leave it there and then their team is looking at them thinking, who are you? How are you going to be our leader? and they lose respect >> very quickly >> and it's because vulnerability in my

view when you're a leader when you're in that position >> there's two parts yes look I am also infallible look at how I messed up in the past look at all the things that the mistakes I've made you're giving them permission to recognize hey we don't have to be perfect but then as their leader you need to shift to part two which is and here is what I learned which I'm going to help you with so that

we can go and succeed >> and so shifting into the yeah I messed up. Oh, this went bad, but here's what I learned. Here's how I'm going to put it in practice, and here's how we can rise together. That is often the missing second piece that a lot of people forget about, and then they wonder why no one respects them. >> Yeah. Yeah. Have you seen that? Good. Yes, you're right. It's this desire to be so human that what happens is is

everybody else goes, "Well, I'm not sure that this person can lead us where we got to go." Because ultimately, people do want to be led. >> Yes. >> They actually want somebody that they can put some confidence in. Mhm. >> It's a really interesting point you make there and it it and and you know, you can go in and you can listen and still develop the same trust with the team

without ering all of your weaknesses to try to look like Mr. Humble or Mrs. Humble. Is that what you're getting at? >> Yeah. Well, >> a little bit of overshare. >> Exactly. So, I think you need to be vulnerability is important, but not oversharing because you still need these people to have trust that you are the right person. And if you're only ever sharing, look at all the ways I messed up.

>> Exactly. They're going to be questioning, well, why are you here? >> So, you might strategically choose a few to share just to acknowledge, hey, >> I'm like you. I've been on this journey, too. But here's what I've learned, and here's how that benefited me in the past, and here's how we're going to apply that and get better. Is it, and I'm not trying to leave it at just this, but is it better to be, hey, I don't

know it all, but I do believe we can figure it out and win. That feels like the nice balance between some vulnerability, but also there's some strength here, some confidence. We can win. We can figure this out. >> Yeah. Make it a we. >> Yeah. >> And then it's more of a team effort. That's right. And I think the one of the greatest mistakes new leaders make is

feeling like they need to have all the answers. And so they might make up some answers to feel like they know what they're talking about because they think that's what the team needs, but that's not what the team needs. The team needs honesty and cander and transparency, >> but also the assurance of we will figure it out. >> Or let me go and find out and speak to such and such and then we will take it

to the next level. That's what people crave. >> Yeah. Yeah. See, this is so important. Your book, the work you're doing is so important. And I I feel like the takeaway here is I want leaders to catch this. I've got to make sure that I have the right confidence, the right amount so that I can transfer that confidence to my team. Is that the journey here?

>> Yes. As a leader. >> Yeah. As a leader. But you can't create a confident team if you aren't confident. Is that true? >> I like this. The head tilt. >> Yes. Because I would say you can fake it to a certain extent. >> Fair. >> And a lot of people do this and then where they get shaken is when there is

something that doesn't go to plan, >> right? >> And then suddenly you see them unravel. >> Bluster only goes so far. >> Yeah. >> So I think truly effective leaders, >> right, >> have to recognize that the team is going to feed off them. And that's why developing your sense of big trust, which if I remind everybody, relates to how you see yourself,

>> which then shapes what kind of scars you're carrying and what you're anticipating and noticing and expecting and creating in your reality. That is contagious. Now, the other thing which is really interesting for leaders though, you know, we hear this concept of psychological safety, >> the importance of creating an environment with your team where there's no fear of interpersonal

consequence. What does that mean? That means anyone on the team is free to share anything on their mind, a challenge, a question, a query, and they don't worry that other people will judge them. That's been seen as a core driver of performance in high succeeding, highly succeeding teams. My perspective is you can even create the most psychologically safe environment for

your team, but if they individually don't have their own big trust, they're still going to be doubting, is my idea good enough to share? >> Do I even have the words to share it? what if I share it and people don't like it? So that's why as a leader part of it is yes you need to develop that big trust in yourself but then you also need to find ways to help your teams. In

fact, I encourage leaders to get your teams to do the doubt profile. >> So, you can almost use it in a coaching conversation and go, "Wow, okay, I didn't realize your autonomy is so low. How can we help you build that?" Cuz let's say someone's autonomy is low on your team. What does that tell us? That tells us that this team member doesn't feel like they have any power. They struggle to make their own decisions and they're probably always coming to you to

ask, "Hey, is this the right approach? Do you think I should do this?" So you want to empower them to go off and make a low stakes decision so they can develop that sense of hey I trust my ability to make decisions which increases their autonomy. Or if someone is struggling with agency what that tells us is that on your team they doubt that they have the skills that they need. >> So then if that comes up you can talk to

them and say well what is it? What are your gaps? Let's get you on a training program. Let's get you to shadow someone so you can recognize that no you do have what you need. So, it's a fantastic teaching tool and coaching tool that you can use as well, which is why there's so many layers to it and why I love it so much. >> Yeah. And I love the practicality there because many times somebody just needs some basic training >> completely.

>> And they may not, it may even be the placebo. I'm tying all this in here, but just a simple training program and all of a sudden they feel now, well, I've completed the training when you knew they had it all along. If you made a good hire, that's really good. And so it's it's really about as great leadership to build a confident team. >> It's almost like are you scoring your people on this?

>> I think this should be a KPI for organizations. >> Yeah. >> Especially for leaders. So can you take your team as a leader, you know, test them at the beginning of your term or every year? >> That's right. >> Where are people's what's people's doubt profile looking like? >> And then do it every quarter. Has anything increased or not? Because sometimes what happens is someone might be really high on acceptance and then they experience a failure and a

knockback and a setback and then their performance suffers and then you'll see it in their results. Their acceptance will drop >> and you need to in my view understand what is happening cuz this will tell you what they're experiencing before you see it in their behavior. >> And then you can address it before it becomes a real significant performance problem. >> Yeah. >> So it becomes Yeah. I I think that there

should be psychological measures that leaders are assessed on. >> We had pulled some data on this. Um a leadership doubt index found 97% of leaders have questioned a critical aspect of their leadership but rarely talk about it openly. >> So I bring that data up because that's where we're at right now in the conversation. So obviously they could take this quiz,

they could read the book, and they could go, "Okay, I see where I'm at." But isn't the first like step something before that? cuz I read that and I was like, I want to run this by you. They rarely talk about it. Is that because they feel vulnerable that if I share >> that I'm lacking confidence that I lose all authority or what is it if it's not

that? >> I would say it's two. So one of them is definitely that the if I share this people will think that I am not cut out for this job, >> right? >> And it will have consequences for me, >> right? >> The second piece is they think they're the only ones who experience it. Oh, >> and that's called pluralistic ignorance. I didn't know there was a term for this. Pluralistic ignorance is that experience

that we have where we think we're the only one who experiences this. We're the only one with doubts. We're the only one who becomes critical after a failure. No, that's ignorant to think that. >> Vast majority of people do. In fact, healthy, psychologically healthy people do experience doubt. It is a necessary part of the human experience. But the difference, let me give you a quick analogy. I like sharing this one cuz it

helps people make sense of all of this. Let's say, okay, so we have two glasses or cups on the table. Let's say they were both filled with water to the top. And then Ken, I have a golf ball here, which is heavy, >> and I have a pingpong ball here, which is light. >> If I take the pingpong ball and I place it on your cup of water, what happens to the ping-pong ball? The light. It floats. What happens to the water?

>> Stays. >> Stays. If I take the golf ball, which is heavy, and I drop it on top of my cup, what happens to the golf ball? >> Sinks. What happens to the water >> spills? >> This is how we need to see doubt. Doubt should be like that pingpong ball. It's there. It's floating. We see it. We acknowledge it. But it doesn't become a part of us. But what happens too often

is that for us, our doubt is the golf ball. We internalize it. We make it mean something about us and our worthiness and our capability and what we can and cannot do and what we do and do not believe. And then it becomes a core part of how we see ourselves, our identity, >> and it undermines our selfrust, which undermines our ability to take action

and grow, etc. Now, here's what's also really interesting. If I were to take that ball out, so let's say I grab a spoon and I take the ball out. So, the golf ball is now out of the water. Has that water miraculously refilled itself? >> No. >> No. And so what we find is people who go on this journey of interrogating their doubt and developing that selfrust, they still lose a part of themselves when

they're pulling out the doubt because they have outsourced so much of who they are to recognition and reward and approval and validation that they also have to go through a process of rediscovering >> who they are and what they want in life. And it's so interesting. Sometimes we work with people who have for decades been in unfulfilling,

damaging careers and they finally make a decision to step away. Maybe they go on a sbatical or they just they quit and just give themselves them time. >> They have no idea what they want because for so long they were running on autopilot. >> Yeah. >> And even though we work with them to develop the trust, they then also have to go and trust their instincts. And so that's a whole other piece which is

interesting to think about that the goal shouldn't be to eliminate the doubt. It's just not to internalize it. Yeah. >> And to start to trust your instincts. What are your values? What is it that you truly truly want? >> And that can be really hard if you've been living your life for other people >> or to try and prove yourself. >> Oh my gosh. And and to the audience, what did you learn today?

>> What did you learn? What did you write down? What are you going to work on? Here's something, a couple things that I'm going to challenge you with at the start of the conversation. And of course, anytime someone goes to the Latin, I get really excited because I love the roots of words and confidence means with trust. So, do you trust yourself? That's why the book is big

trust. But something I took away um that I wrote down is I really want to get to the place of I could. I want to start creating those I could lists. And that's so important as I'm just in a different phase of life. My kids are older. I'm almost an empty neester. You know, I I've been in this this career for quite a while. You know, it's just a different

season of life. But I can still, and as you know, you saw my results. I still deal with a lot of acceptance, doubt. So, I need to create the I could list. I think that's really, really important. And that's going to inform my I will. So, I'm going to do the sheet of paper, the line down the middle, and I'm going to do that in the days ahead. I'm challenging you to do the same thing. I think it's going to give you tremendous

illumination. Hey, this was so fun. >> This was a lot of fun >> and I we could have gone three hours. >> We could have >> uh but I'm better for it and our audience is too. So, thank you. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Yeah. Hey, folks, your growth hinges on one skill more than anything else, communication. I've talked with lots of great communicators, but Dave Ramsey stands

out. In his new book, Stop Talking, Start Communicating, he unpacks the DISC assessment, the tool he's used for decades with his team in his marriage and to connect with people and shows you how to use it in your everyday conversations. Pre-order now for $34.99 and get over $30 in free bonuses. Go to

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